The Truth about Hell - A response to "To Hell with Eternal Torment"

Sanctus Vesania 21 months ago

Amen! For a God who would torture his own creations in Hell simply because they made the wrong choice. Amen for free will, the most damnable gift of all time!

By the way, maybe you should re-read my hub. Nowhere do I accuse the true God of speaking double out of His mouth. That's because I don't believe in a two faced god; one who cries while he fries. One who's all powerful, but can't save. A god who tells us to love our enemies while he has his tormented. A savior who can only save some, and not all.

I await the day when all you Hellers learn, and repent of your wickedness.

That's all I'm going to say, for I know your next response will be to the great effect of how awesome your god of torture is.

Good bye

Hell N0 21 months ago

I await the day when all you Hellers learn, and repent of your wickedness.

Excuse me sir!! The term hellers has been copy writed.

I'm just joking. I love the term.

X-ile 21 months ago

People want to have their cake and eat it to.

ryancarter 20 months ago

Yeah, brotheryochanan, Satan IS a deceiver. He wants you to believe your own way, not what Jesus taught. God won't elate over any torture. Satan is the accuser, accusing God of being happy about people going to hell.

It all goes to turn people away and complacent. Satan whispers: "Don't worry about Hell, it's not that bad. Do what you want. Don't worry about what Jesus said, make up your own stuff." LOL

Kristeen, excellent Hub!

DavidWS10 20 months ago

Kristeen, keep up the good work and continue fighting the good faith.You have spoken the truth and those who reject it are the ones Paul warned Timothy about in

2 Tim. 4:3-4: "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Keep up the good work!

Team Wiseman 19 months ago

A great reminder to pray for others. You have given the full Truth. You know, so many people plan their vacations, but do not even think of their eternity. May God Bless you in your adventure in LIFE!-Team Wiseman

DavidWS10 19 months ago

Team Wiseman does make an excellent point about praying for others. In our Baptist churches we spend so much time in our mid-week prayer meetings praying for our sick and hurting members, and yet spend so little, or no time at all praying for the lost and unconcerned. This is a pattern I believe we need to change.

DavidWS10 19 months ago

Disappearinghead, you are absolutlely incorrect regarding eternal torment. It does not contradict the nature of God. Although He is Love, He is also a JUST God who does require accountability for one's actions and beliefs. That He is a God of Justice is held up throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament, and especially in the teachings of Jesus.

Hell

Usage Number: 1

Strong's Number:

Original Word: ??????, geenna

Usage Notes: represents the Hebrew Ge-Hinnom (the valley of Tophet) and a corresponding Aramaic word; it is found twelve times in the NT, eleven of which are in the Synoptists, in every instance as uttered by the Lord Himself. He who says to his brother, Thou fool (see under FOOL),will be in danger of "the hell of fire," Matt. 5:22; it is better to pluck out (a metaphorical description of irrevocable law) an eye that causes its possessor to stumble, than that his "whole body be cast into hell," Matt. 5:29; similarly with the hand, Matt. 5:30; in Matt. 18:8, 9, the admonitions are repeated, with an additional mention of the foot; here, too, the warning concerns the person himself (for which obviously the "body" stands in chapt. 5); in ver. 8, "the eternal fire" is mentioned as the doom, the character of the region standing for the region itself, the two being combined in the phrase "the hell of fire," ver. 9. To the passage in Matt. 18, that in Mark 9:43-47, is parallel; here to the word "hell" are applied the extended descriptions "the unquenchable fire" and "where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched."

That God, "after He hath killed, hath power to cast into hell," is assigned as a reason why He should be feared with the fear that keeps from evil doing, Luke 12:5; the parallel passage to this in Matt. 10:28 declares, not the casting in, but the doom which follows, namely, the destruction (not the loss of being, but of well-being) of "both soul and body."

In Matt. 23 the Lord denounces the scribes and Pharisees, who in proselytizing a person "make him two-fold more a son of hell" than themselves (Matt 23:15), the phrase here being expressive of moral characteristics, and declares the impossibility of their escaping "the judgment of hell," Matt. 23:33. In Jas. 3:6 "hell" is described as the source of the evil done by misuse of the tongue; here the word stands for the powers of darkness, whose characteristics and destiny are those of "hell."

For terms descriptive of "hell," see e.g., Matt. 13:42; Matt. 25:46; Phil. 3:19; 2 Thess. 1:9; Heb. 10:39; 2 Pet. 2:17; Jude 1:13; Rev. 2:11; Rev. 19:20; Rev. 20:6, 10, 14; Rev. 21:8.

Notes: (1) For the rendering "hell" as a translation of had?s, corresponding to Sheol, wrongly rendered "the grave" and "hell," see HADES. (2) The verb tartaroo, translated "cast down to hell" in 2 Pet. 2:4, signifies to consign to Tartarus, which is neither Sheol nor had?s nor hell, but the place where those angels whose special sin is referred to in that passage are confined "to be reserved unto judgment;" the region is described as "pits of darkness," RV.

Hades

Usage Number: 1

Strong's Number:

Original Word: ???????, had?s

Usage Notes: "the region of departed spirits of the lost" (but including the blessed dead in periods preceding the ascension of Christ). It has been thought by some that the word etymologically meant "the unseen" (from a, negative, and eido, "to see"), but this derivation is questionable; a more probable derivation is from hado, signifying "all-receiving." It corresponds to "Sheol" in the OT. In the AV of the OT and NT; it has been unhappily rendered "hell," e.g., Psalm 16:10; or "the grave," e.g., Gen. 37:35; or "the pit," Num. 16:30, 33; in the NT the revisers have always used the rendering "had?s;" in the OT, they have not been uniform in the translation, e.g. in Isa. 14:15 "hell" (marg., "Sheol"); usually they have "Sheol" in the text and "the grave" in the margin. It never denotes the grave, nor is the permanent region of the lost; in point of time it is, for such, intermediate between decease and the doom of Gehenna. For the condition, see Luke 16:23-31.

The word is used four times in the Gospels, and always by the Lord, Matt. 11:23; Matt. 16:18; Luke 10:15; Luke 16:23; it is used with reference to the soul of Christ, Acts 2:27, 31; Christ declares that He has the keys of it, Rev. 1:18; in Rev. 6:8 it is personified, with the signification of the temporary destiny of the doomed; it is to give up those who are therein, Rev. 20:13, and is to be cast into the lake of fire, ver. 14.

Note: In 1 Cor. 15:55 the most authentic mss. have thanatos, "death," in the 2nd part of the verse, instead of "had?s," which the AV wrongly renders "grave" ("hell," in the marg.).

This is just the Greek definitions from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Do you want the Hebrew as well?

DavidWS10 19 months ago

Here is the Old Testament definition.

Sheol

Usage Number: 1

Strong's Number:

Original Word: ?????????, she?ôl

Usage Notes: "Sheol." The 66 occurrences of this word are distributed throughout every period of biblical Hebrew. First, the word means the state of death: "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?" (Psa. 6:5; cf. Psa. 18:5). It is the final resting place of all men: "They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave (Job 21:13). Hannah confessed that it was the omnipotent God who brings men to She?ôl (death) or kills them (1 Sam. 2:6). "Sheol" is parallel to Hebrew words for "pit" or "hell" (Job 26:6), "corruption" or "decay" (Psa. 16:10), and "destruction" (Prov. 15:11).

Second, "Sheol" is used of a place of conscious existence after death. In the first biblical appearance of the word Jacob said that he would "go down into the grave unto my son mourning" (Gen. 37:35). All men go to "Sheol", a place and state of consciousness after death (Psa. 16:10). The wicked receive punishment there (Num. 16:30; Deut. 32:22; Psa. 9:17). They are put to shame and silenced in "Sheol" (Psa. 31:17). Jesus alluded to Isaiah's use of She?ôl Isa 14:13-15) in pronouncing judgment on Capernaum (Matt. 11:23), translating "Sheol" as "Hades" or "Hell," meaning the place of conscious existence and judgment. It is an undesirable place for the wicked (Job 24:19) and a refuge for the righteous (Job 14:13). Thus "Sheol" is also a place of reward for the righteous (Hos. 13:14; cf. 1 Cor. 15:55). Jesus' teaching in Luke 16:19-31 seems to reflect accurately the Old Testament concept of She?ôl; it is a place of conscious existence after death, one side of which is occupied by the suffering, unrighteous dead separated by a great chasm from the other side peopled by the righteous dead enjoying their reward.

DavidWS10 19 months ago

I don't need to consult a Jewish encyclopedia. It has nothing to do with Christianity and our doctrines. However, I did some further digging on Sheol. This is what I found:

she?ôl

The term she?ôl occurs around sixty times and may be consistently translated "grave" or transliterated "Sheol." The meaning is the same in both instances—referring to the place of the departed human spirit after physical death.

The term is commonly found in the phrase "go down to Sheol," which is a Hebraic euphemism for "to die." The following texts describe the natural process of dying: Gen. 37:35; 42:38; 44:29 ff.; 2 Sam. 22:6; 1 Kgs. 2:6 ff.; Job 7:9; Pss. 30:3; 88:3; Ezek. 31:15; Eccl. 9:10. Isa. 57:9 describes deliberate killing. Also evident is the truth that the timing of one's death is entirely subject to divine control (cf. 1 Sam. 2:6).

Other texts indicate that divine judgment rests on those who "go down to Sheol"—for example, Korah and his fellow conspirators (Num. 16:33). See also Pss. 55:15; 141:7; Prov. 5:5; Ezek. 31:16; Amos 9:2.

The fear of the grave (and death) is indicated in Ps. 116:3 (cf. also Prov. 27:20). Associated with this fear is the "power of the grave" that grips the heart of human beings and controls their fate (cf. Prov. 30:16; Isa. 5:14). In stark contrast to this is the prophetic anticipation in Ps. 16:10 of Yahweh's preservation of the Messiah from the confines of death and the grave.

Deut. 32:22 refers metaphorically to Sheol as the place which provides the "arena" for the reception and expression of divine anger; but see also Job 14:13.

General references to Sheol also indicate that it is the resting place of the dead (e.g., Ps. 6:5); and more particularly the resting place, or fate, of the wicked (cf. Pss. 9:17; 49:14; Isa. 14:9 ff.; 28:15 ff.).

Pss. 49:15; 86:13; Jonah 2:2 contain assurance for godly worshipers of Yahweh that he, Yahweh, will preserve them from the power of the grave (i.e., from death). One significant text in this regard is Hos. 13:14, where Yahweh promises to redeem his people from the power of the grave—to grant them newness of life in a renewed intimate relationship with himself. In so doing he mocks the impotence of both death and the grave and anticipates the similar triumphant assertion of Paul in 1 Cor. 15:55.

NT Words

had?s

This word is a genuine dynamic equivalent for the Hebrew term she?ôl, above. had?s functions both as a name and as a noun derived from the significance of that name. Hades refers firstly to the god of the underworld in classical Greek mythology. This usage does not appear in the New Testament canon, but the noun derived from that name does. Hades, in the biblical context, also refers to the realm of the dead (i.e., "hell" or the "grave"). had?s occurs ten times in the New Testament.

In some of these contexts, "hell" or "grave" denotes divine judgment. The terrible fate of Capernaum is one such example—this village is cast down to hell as a consequence of rejecting the Messiah (cf. Matt. 11:23; Luke 10:15). Similar punishment is handed out to the rich man in Luke 16:23. It is also the universal fate of the wicked in Rev. 20:13, 14. Other texts, such as Matt. 16:18, refer literally to the "gates of hell" being impotent before the infinitely greater power of Christ and his church, against which this power of death will never prevail. In a similar vein, Rev. 1:18 refers to Christ's utter supremacy over the kingdom of death (cf. also Rev. 6:8).

Finally, Acts 2:27, 31 refer to God's sovereign power over hell (or Hades) in that the Messiah, of whom David spoke, will never be abandoned by God to the grave, and his body will not suffer corruption. Such a reference is, of course, a prophetic reflection on the resurrection of Christ.

Note: In 1 Cor. 15:5, the best reading is "death" (thanatos ? DEATH) rather than "grave" (had?s).

Pollyannalana 18 months ago

You know there is an even sadder side to this I think. We have some wonderful loving people who will not go to Heaven, either because they think they can't be good enough not realizing no one can or just simply not understanding salvation. There are those who say, well why shouldn't I go to Heaven, I don't kill or steal...still just not understanding Jesus is our only salvation. Salvation is so simple many just cannot accept it and many also claim to while their deeds show they are all talk and do not know Jesus. I have someone very close to me like that and it just really seems hopeless, in fact she is so like a couple of other in her family you almost wonder if they can help it but of course we know they do have that choice and i wonder if she like many others think they can lie their way into heaven.

Even ones saying did I not do this or that in Your name and He will say depart from me, I never knew you. A lot of food for thought.

Sherman 18 months ago

Aha! But God isn't reasonable. God is merciful and full of love to be shared. The is why Jesus came to fulfill the law, satisfying its demands and saving all people. Jesus came to save because God doesn't intend to condemn or loose anyone. Tis pure unselfish gift. Like the prodigal son being welcomed back home without being required to pay back.

Hmmmm. Forgiveness without conditions. Gracious sakes alive!

Ri ck  18 months ago

Like so many others who think they know what is in the Bible, Kristeen is also one who spreads false doctrines. It seems obvious from the tone of her article that she is not teachable on this subject and perhaps on other spiritual matters as well.

Almighty God has a plan for every human being. Unfortunately, Adam and Eve chose to believe Satan rather than God. As a result, mankind was sentenced to 6000 years of being cut off from God and eternal life (Genesis 3:22-24). Mankind in general is still cut off from God and under that curse until Jesus Christ returns back to this earth to remove Satanand to rule all nations from Jerusalem. At that time, peoples' minds will be opened to the truth of God and His plan from the Bible.

Does Kristeen think eternal life is so cheap that there is nothing one has to do to have it but speak a few words accepting Jesus as their Savior? There is so much more to the Christian life than that!

Most people who have ever lived have never been called to salvation but are in their graves awaiting a resurrection from the dead. NO ONE has gone to heaven but Jesus Christ who came down from heaven. And NO ONE has gone to a place called hell, which is nothing more than a hole in the ground. Both of these concepts originated from Satan and then came from Dante Alighieri's writing, The Divine Comedy. They were subsequently adopted by the Roman Catholic Church and spread to all her Protestant daughters.

As a result, most professing Christians today believe these false doctrines because that is what they were taught growing up, what their church group teaches or what someone else told them. Most people who consider themselves Christians DO NOT know the true God of the Bible, the God of Israel, who was the LORD God of the Old Testament and became Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

I challenge Kristeen or anyone else to prove from the Bible that anyone (other than Jesus Christ) has gone to a place called heaven or that anyone has gone to a place of torment called hell.

Debradoo 18 months ago

Wonderful hub Kristeen. And it has certainly got the enemy hopping to come up with some pseudo-doctrine(s) to try and pollute,deny and twist (or simply water down) the truth about hell (according to the Bible).

Keep on teaching us the truth, sister!

MikeL 17 months ago

I just found this blog and read all of the comments. Just an objective viewpoint that I have concerning what I read.

1) I am a RECOVERING Catholic which means that I believe they have done damage to my belief Center and I am trying to weigh different points of view as to what I truly believe.

Just some observations that I have made upon reading this blog:

1) Let's face it NOBODY has returned from the dead so NOBODY know's what is truly beyond.(If there is a beyond)

2) I have read and studied the Bible for the past 25 years so I too have experience, however, I know one thing is true.....it is full of contradictions. Remember, so-called Bible experts can twist any of these contradictions to fit into their own Agenda.

3) Many so called Christians that I have met will not allow anyone else to express their opinion. I believe it is because they cannot truly defend what they believe either logically or Scripturally........Kristeen..I think that you fit into this category. Why not allow different points of view on this blog? What are you afraid of? Being wrong? I say this as a non Biblical expert and as a person with debating experience. If you are truly RIGHT then you have nothing to fear.

Just an objective point of view on this blog. Just to add one more thing to all.....Nobody knows the perfect truth about anything spiritual. Everyone has bits and pieces of it. We are all ONLY humans. Let us all remember this so our egos don't get too big with all this Bible stuff.

ShadowKing! 17 months ago

Hell is derived from an Old English and Norse word, "helle" or "hel" and originally referred to a Norse Goddess of the dead named Hel. Later Irish and British peasants referred to hell as "a hole in the ground". During the King James I reign, Catholic scholars influenced the theologians working on what eventually became known as the KJV--to use "hell" in the places of Gehenna "valley of the Hinnom (dead)". Thus the misconception was born. Hell means the "grave".

In my pdf book "Hell Has No Fire" I thoroughly provide biblical, historical, and linguistic evidence that DISPROVES hell as "a place of eternal fire and torment".

Visit my blog Hell Has No Fire.blogspot.com, for the complete detailed exposing of a 1900-year old fib.

Butch News 17 months ago

There is no hell, nor heaven, to orthodox Jews. The word hell in the Old Testament is used to translate the concept of a burial place.

Most modern ideas of hell come from Islam and Paradise Lost by Milton who features Lucifer as a main character. But there never was a Lucifer as a person. It's the Latin word for the Morning Star Venus. The error in Isaiah 14:12 has been corrected in modern translations of the Bible and there is no longer any reference to Lucifer in the Bible (RSV version).

ShadowKing! 17 months ago

Kristeen.

The English translations have many linguistic flaws, such as the concept of an "eternal-burning hell". However, the Greek and Hebrew texts are flawless. Any serious Bible scholar knows this.

My agenda isn't to persuade you to believe "hell" originally meant "grave". I'm just presenting a thoroughly researched interpretation loaded with verifiable facts. There are a lot of things the English translations say that the Hebrew and Greek don't say. Knowing this is a simple matter of reading a lexicon.

Thank you for your time.

violann 17 months ago

I agree that God didn't create us to go to hell, it's a choice we make by refusing His free gift to us, His son Jesus. God doesn't send anyone there, it's a choice that's made.

Ed Ka 17 months ago

Awesome Hub Kristeen it amazes me the amount of people who really don't get it. Let us forget Hell for a couple of minutes. God so love the world the He gave us His son for our sins, and He so love His son that he has agreed not to force any who does not want to follow Him to forcefully stay in Heaven for eternity. What everyone forgets is that Death and Hell are thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone prepared for the Devil and his angles. This lake was never designed for man, yet any man who refuses the mercies of God needs to be placed somewhere, So God in His mercy has chosen the one place in all creation that they will be utterly and totally separated from the presence of God- so as not to offend the unbelievers.

LimeOrange 17 months ago

Dear Kristeen,

You are a sincere Christian, and that's comforting. I pray then that you open your heart and mind to what I'm about to say.

Your faith is absolutely amazing, and no doubt God is pleased with it. However, it is by no chance that you are being exposed to the truth of hell, so that God can use you more effectively. Do not close your heart and mind and listen to what others have to say, then read the Scriptures again to see whether what you believe in or what others say is true or not. The Holy Spirit is faithful to show the way to those that are humble.

Peter was wrong in assuming that the Gentiles were not worthy of the good news but God corrected him. Learning misconceptions you picked up from people's doctrine and your culture can be straightened out by God if you will have a humble heart to listen.

The approach of others in trying to inform you were quite unfriendly, which might have rebuffed you but I urge you to read on the topic of hell and when you have read all the scriptures that give light to this question then let your heart decide.

I'll stop here and continue with the next post on the topic of Hell.

LimeOrange 17 months ago

I pray that you will read through this carefully.

Do I believe in Hell? Yes, I do. It's real.

Do I believe it's a place of punishment? Yes, it is.

Do I believe it will exist forever? No, it won't.

Do I believe people are in hell now? No, no one is in Hell, yet.

Eternal life is a gift given only to people who accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior. I'm sure we both agree on this?

How is it that wicked people also gain immortality, the only difference is in their place of residence? Saints = Heaven and Wicked = Hell? God could have been clearer in saying, thou shall live with me in my kingdom? He does mention this but most often than not the scriptures pointed out that those saved will LIVE not PERISH. Eternal life is given by God as a gift. I do not understand why God will give it to the wicked AS WELL just to torment them forever for the sins they have committed in their lifetime?

Do I mean to say the wicked will not be punished? NO! They will be punished, they will be thrown to the lake of fire! They will suffer! But they will also confess God's justice and love! Why? Because their punishment will be according to their wickedness/sins.

The lake of fire will burn FOREVER (as mentioned in scriptures). Look through the usage of "FOREVER" in scriptures and it usually means the period of existence of the thing in question. It does not equate eternity. Specifically look at Jonah's experience. He called his 3 days and 3 nights of lock-up "forever" but surely it did not mean eternity?

People will be thrown to the lake of fire but it will not burn forever. RATHER, it will CONSUME them till they are no more. Satan and his devils will surely burn and last longer than any humans, but I don't know how long he'll be burning till he is no more.

God clearly said, at the end of revelation He will remove pain and suffering from his creations (earth, universe, heavens). This doesn't fall well if there's still a place of suffering existing together, does it? Hell will at some point stop to EXIST when all that are wicked has been burned up.

Please read this verse:

"Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign Lord. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live."

Ezekiel 18:23

If hell was eternal torment, aren't they "living" also? Doesn't this mean they live ETERNALLY as well? God doesn't want to see the wicked to DIE? God can't give them eternal life, this causes Him pain. He can't even bear the thought of killing, what more eternal torment?

The doctrine about Hell not being eternal, is not supposed to make one procrastinate, but rather to realize God's true loving nature and also his sufficient JUST nature.

God is LOVE. God is JUST.

This doctrine does not attempt to soften the truth, but rather to vindicate God's nature.

Do you know where the eternal soul and punishment originated from? It was from Greek mythology.

If you'd like to know more: www.helltruth.com

LimeOrange 17 months ago

Hi Kristeen!

But I never said the wicked will not go to hell. I indeed believe they will. What I'm trying to tell you is that the hell that we are both talking about will not burn forever. It's a place of suffering but it is not eternal torment. Do you understand our difference?

You agreed that Eternal Life is available to all people, if they will believe in Jesus Christ. However, whether or not they accept Him, when you claim that Hell is eternal, you also claim that the soul of people are immortal and that they will exist forever, the righteous in heaven, the wicked in hell. There's no distinction at all for those that received Christ! Eternal life is given only to those that accept Christ, how is it possible that the wicked will also live forever in hell? Wouldn't this mean they have eternal life too? Or will you claim that "life" simply refers to life in heaven?

Anyway, I'm happy that regardless of this difference we both have our faith in Christ, but this eternal punishment idea of hell has pushed away a lot of people and made them hate God. This is what bothers me most!

Yes, I've read that parable. And I do believe it's a parable so it does not teach that there's that place of existence where the wicked and righteous are separated right after their death.

Thank you for reading, and have a good day!

Marvin Rice 17 months ago

Hey Guys I have taken the time to read all of these comments and it brakes my heart to see that this subject is yet another paln of the devil to divide the body of christ as if it is not already divided up enough into all kinds of denomiations because of disagreements in the church the devil wishes to divide and conquer, but he cannot because the battle is already won should we be trying to win souls for Jesus not Debating about a place exsistance or how long it will last. How can we win souls when we cant even agree on things. Lets get back to winning souls into the body of Christ, a body that is not divided because the word says a Kingdom divided against its self cannot stand so lets stand for christ. If you believe that hell is real or if you dont, if you really love JESUS and love your fellow mankind then you wouldnt want no one to spend eternity without JESUS thats what its all about not how hot hell is or how bad it is its about how Great God is and how wonderful his Presence is. So keep the faith and lets win souls into the kingdom of God. Praise THE LORD JESUS CHRIST for ever.

chenz2 17 months ago

Hey Kristeen,

I do have some questions for you.

What happens to these 3 groups:

1. The billions of people who ever lived that never heard the gospel.

2. Those that heard a false gospel and responded to that, thinking it was the right one? (an example would be the billions of people during the 1000 years when Catholicism was the only religion and people couldn't even read the bible themselves)

3. People with mental disorders (for instance, my mom has schizophrenia... so she can't tell the difference anymore between what is real and what isn't)

I am sincerely interested in your answers. And I beg of you not to answer them by saying "God is just and we will leave it up to Him." I need real answers to these.

And can you show me the specific verses where it says Satan is a fallen angel who was once good and then decided to become evil? I cannot find that anywhere in my Bible (NIV). The only thing I see is Jesus saying Satan was a murderer and liar from the beginning.

We seem to have this idea that Satan is trying to get as many people possible thrown into hell. What would be the reason for this? Just to spite God? I mean, clearly Satan won the war. He got about 95% of humanity. I wouldn't call it a victory for God unless God has something else up his sleeve that we don't know about?

Last question. Why do we think Satan is behind abortion (or killing of children)? He is sending all these people to heaven! That is not very smart of him. I thought his job is to bring everyone to hell. Considering the odds, if he lets them live, they have a 95% of going to hell, whereas if he kills them in the womb or before a certain age, they have a 0% chance, we are told. Can you let me know your logic on that?

These are the questions that go through my mind. Something just doesn't add up here. I am not trying to pick a fight though. If you have good answers to these, I will be glad to listen. And yes, I do believe that Jesus died for my sins and that He is the only way to God. As a result, you and I are brothers and sisters in Christ. So please know I am not attacking you :-)

chenz2 17 months ago

Hey Kristeen,

I do have some questions for you.

What happens to these 3 groups:

1. The billions of people who ever lived that never heard the gospel.

2. Those that heard a false gospel and responded to that, thinking it was the right one? (an example would be the billions of people during the 1000 years when Catholicism was the only religion and people couldn't even read the bible themselves)

3. People with mental disorders (for instance, my mom has schizophrenia... so she can't tell the difference anymore between what is real and what isn't)

I am sincerely interested in your answers. And I beg of you not to answer them by saying "God is just and we will leave it up to Him." I need real answers to these.

And can you show me the specific verses where it says Satan is a fallen angel who was once good and then decided to become evil? I cannot find that anywhere in my Bible (NIV). The only thing I see is Jesus saying Satan was a murderer and liar from the beginning.

We seem to have this idea that Satan is trying to get as many people possible thrown into hell. What would be the reason for this? Just to spite God? I mean, clearly Satan won the war. He got about 95% of humanity. I wouldn't call it a victory for God unless God has something else up his sleeve that we don't know about?

Last question. Why do we think Satan is behind abortion (or killing of children)? He is sending all these people to heaven! That is not very smart of him. I thought his job is to bring everyone to hell. Considering the odds, if he lets them live, they have a 95% of going to hell, whereas if he kills them in the womb or before a certain age, they have a 0% chance, we are told. Can you let me know your logic on that?

These are the questions that go through my mind. Something just doesn't add up here. I am not trying to pick a fight though. If you have good answers to these, I will be glad to listen. And yes, I do believe that Jesus died for my sins and that He is the only way to God. As a result, you and I are brothers and sisters in Christ. So please know I am not attacking you :-)

chenz2 17 months ago

Thanks Kristeen! Feel free to research.

Concerning your question... maybe we are on different pages. I have never heard a Pastor/Christian say that unborn babies and children go to hell, since they were never given a choice. Maybe I am wrong though. Maybe they do go to hell to be tormented forever, since they never heard the gospel, and thus did not respond. So my logic was, since we are told babies and unborn children go to heaven, why would Satan be the one behind abortion? It is only logical that he would want them to grow up so he can tempt them away from God, which he is quite successful at (90-95% success rate, from the stats I read on Christianity in the world).

I know it seems like a crazy question, conclusion... but if it's true that babies/unborn children go to heaven (which David implied they did), than the logical conclusion is that Satan would not be behind it, since his job is to steal people away and get them thrown into hell, hot heaven.

VOICE CIW... I don't see how the idea that hell is not eternal would have an effect on how people live. It is the idea of an eternal hell that has actually turned most people away from God and rejected Christianity outright. The bible said it's his KINDNESS that leads people to repentance. Not fear. I would argue you did not choose God anyway, so you have nothing to boast about (nor do I). He CHOSE YOU and un-blinded your eyes so you could see. You have no more free will to choose him than Paul had free will to choose Him or Peter had free will to deny Christ 3 times. You did not choose to be born in America to where you would hear the true gospel. That was chosen for you. If you had been put in the middle east, you would most likely be Muslim and have no idea what the gospel even is.

It seems that many Christians would be disappointed and find it unfair if hell were not forever, yet they think it's COMPLETELY fair to ETERNALLY torment a teenager who died young and did not have all the many opportunities to repent that we have had. I guarantee you, if it was your own teenage daughter that died, you would wrestle with these issues. If you didn't, I would seriously question your humanity. This is not the God I read about in Psalm 107. But because we think that's what our Bible translation says… we have to twist our minds and emotions to somehow think this IS just. I did for 15 years. I didn't want to go against what I thought God said in His word. And I know that's what you are doing too. So I do not fault you. It's just that I never knew the Greek words behind those words that KJV translated into 'everlasting' and 'eternal'. That was the first step in opening my eyes.

I have found that God judges, chastises, and shows his wrath… but IS God those things? Or do those things always have a purpose (ie. to bring people to Him)? If his wrath lasts for literal EVER, then I have to ignore the clear verses that say his mercy and long-suffering last forever. If wrath lasts forever, by definition, mercy cannot. So we would then have a contradiction. If that is indeed mercy though, than mercy and love completely lose all meaning. We get so outraged as Christians when we see women getting 99 lashes for wearing pants over in the middle east. We certainly do not call that justice. Yet, we think it's PERFECT justice to torment someone similarly for literal ETERNITY for these finite sins for someone who never even heard the gospel. Do you see where the stumbling block for me is?

It has nothing to do with repentance and trusting in Christ. We all agree humanity needs that. But It's the idea that most of humanity was never even given the opportunity to repent and trust Jesus. If all were given the true gospel and all had equal chance to respond and decide their eternal fate, than I could at least understand that. But that is not what happened. What are we to do with all the billions of people NOT living in the Middle East during the hundreds of years after Christ? They had no chance of hearing. These questions haunt me. And people telling me not to worry, that "God is just"… does not mean anything to me if justice is eternal torment. Once you introduce that, I lose all hope in what justice even means L

I'm SO sorry to ramble on like this!! That's all for now :-)

chenz2 17 months ago

It is here where David talks about going to see his son again, who had died as a baby. Many interpret this to mean babies do go to heaven automatically. It COULD mean that but it could also mean David knows he is going to die and join his son in the grave http://bible.cc/2_samuel/12-23.htm

Luke 18:16 also talks about the kingdom of heaven being for kids http://bible.cc/luke/18-16.htm , but again, that could mean many different things. He sure didn't tell them they were sinners who need to repent though. And he certainly never mentioned them needing to be baptized. BUT, if it gives you peace of mind, than do it :-)

I don't think it's a good idea to assume God looks into the future of a dead babies life to determine what they WOULD of done. There is not even a hint of that in scripture. That would be like having someone die at 30, but God punishes them for sins that they would of committed had they lived to be 100.

I don't believe Christians WISH people went to hell (although some wish their enemies did). I just think it's interesting that many Christians have tangled their minds so badly that they think ETERNAL TORMENT for finite sins is FAIR and PERFECTLY just. It would be like putting 5yr old in jail for stealing a cookie, and with no chance of parole. Is that justice or cruelty? Justice by definition IS concerned with fairness, punishment fitting the crime, extenuating circumstances, admission of guilt. So how can we call God just if he torments people for literal eternity for finite sins? We say it's because we have sinned against an infinite God, but then why do not our good deeds of love count infinitely for us with an infinite God?

Luke 12:35-48 actually is a great parable about judgment (christian concept of hell). It's important to note it says that people will be beaten with many blows and some with fewer blows. If hell is eternal, there can be no such thing as someone getting more blows or fewer blows. Time and numbers no longer exist in eternity. Unless you think some people will be burning at 500degrees and some only at 200degrees? As if burning for 200 degrees for eternity is any better? A just judge makes sure the punishment fits the crime.

You also would have to explain, if all end up in the same horrible place anyway, why would Jesus say "it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you (Capernaum).” Again, does that mean burning at 200 degrees instead of 500, but still for eternity? Or if it's simply just eternal separation from God... is Capernaum going to be be farther back in the darkness, while Sodom will be able to at least see a tiny bit of light from God, so that hell will be more bearable?

God bless, and thanks for the comments!

chenz2 17 months ago

I agree with all you just said. Thank you kristeen for your kind replies and your Godly conduct. May God Bless You.

SirDent 17 months ago

Great hub telling the truth about what is to come. I love how you handled yourself in the comments also. Many do not believe because they fear hell. will create excuses, (which are created due to a lack of desire to really know).

Still others will lead the blind into hell. I wonder how many of them wil be sought out in hell? Anyway, a great hub and a great reminder.

chenz2 17 months ago

Sir Dent,

People don't believe in an eternal hell because there is very little biblical support for it. There is much more support for punishment and then annihilation than there is for eternal torment. That is just a fact. Please research this and you will see. It is not as clear cut as you think.

You already believe in eternal torment, so when the bible mentions death and destruction, you take that to mean eternal torment instead of what it means in reality, death and destruction. I'm not criticizing you... you are welcome to have your opinion. But you can't say that it is absolutely what the Bible teaches, when there is so much evidence to the contrary. You can read just a few http://hubpages.com/hub/DOES-THE-BIBLE-TEACH-THE-I and http://hubpages.com/hub/DOES-THE-BIBLE-TEACH-THE-I I'm not here to debate you... I am just saying there are a lot of other Bible believing Christians who take the Bible just as seriously as you do and come to completely different conclusions without reading any pre-conceived notions into it. I'd say universalism is a stretch... that I might agree with you on. But death and destruction of wicked is stated so many times in the Bible, you can't just ignore it and re-interpret it into completely different meanings.

chenz2 17 months ago

You can read his quotes here http://articles.exchristian.net/2002/04/martin-lut although some could be taken out of context (since that sight is clearly anti christian) so you might want to research if you are interested. But he did say all those things. He definitely was anti-semetic and did not think highly of women.

It really doesn't matter what he believed though. My only point was that just because he had good beliefs on some things did not mean he did on everything. He is as fallible in his interpretation as anyone else.

Sharon Freeman 16 months ago

There is a danger in believing that God is going to separate people eternally in torment, because it will ultimately give you a bad opinion about God. Gal 1:6 Says that the Gospel is a Gospel of Grace. The only one who suffers torment are those who believe and teach this. There is always this torment in the back of your mind that maybe God will say, "No, sorry you didn't make it." I was at the most "Christian" place anyone could be and I still suffered the torment of this lie. Once God revealed the truth, now it's my responsibility to take Him at His Word and find out where the teaching has gotten misconstrued. I'm very close to releasing a book on the Grace of God. I will give all the scriptures that have detered Christians to believe this lie. Now, I have the most awesome peace and knowing in the core of my being. I talk to God and He answers me according to His Grace. I want to leave you with this. Only a righteous man could die and take the punishment of sin. So, how can a sinful man satisfy the punishment of a righteous God. Either Jesus took the punishment for some or He took it for everyone. It's impossible to crucify Jesus again. So, it's better to believe the truth; Jesus died for all sin once and for all. I have no doubt that Satan and the evil spirits will be bound there, but never people. God knows how to separate the spirits from the person without ever hurting the vessel. Matthew 8 and Mark 5 show us the same story but the first one Matthew 8 there are two men. Mark 5 there is one. The man is seen in his right mind. That man will have his part in the lake that burns with fire. The man of sin, not the precious vessel. There are two men in each of us. The first Adam (the man of sin) The second Adam (The Lord) 1Cor 15 God Bless! Live Free and break free from this teaching. I never knew that God had revealed this teaching of hell (as torment for people) a lie, until I decided to research. We are not alone. God is done with this lie and his glorious bride will not be spotted with it! God Bless!!!!!

Elisah1957 16 months ago

As a servant of G-d it is my task to offer this message inspired of G-d through the Holy Spirit.

It is very important that one understand G-d our Father and His son Yeshua our L-rd, our redeemer, our savior the Messiah purpose for the new covenant and the understanding of the cross. People, stop arguing over things that gives no purpose but only open to arguments, fierceness, anger and rage, such things being who is G-d favorite group, celebrations, laws and rules. This form of behavior is the distraction used by way of the adversary to hinder G-d true message. Our G-d, Our Messiah Yeshua wants for all to be saved and earn their reward and rest bringing glory to His name. Our G-d, our Messiah is not one of injustice but of fairness; if not, Our L-rd would not have allowed for the deliverance of the Gentiles (the prodigal sons) to share in the new covenant.Our G-d allowed for the behavior of those than, being His beloved (the Israelites) to act as such for this deliverance; so that a chance can be giving to His other children, the lost sheep whom first wandered away from G-d.

All is been done! First G-d allowed for the deliverance of the Gentiles, now a separation is being performed. The Gentiles are now performing as some of the Israelites during Yeshua arrival in the past, blaspheming His name, the disbelief and laws and rules. A separation of those whom truly belong to Him is in affect. As written by His word saying: Luke 12: 52-53 From now on families will be split apart, three in favor of me and two against—or the other way around. A father will decide one way about me; his son, the other;mother and daughter and daughter will disagree; and the decision of an honered mother-in-law will be spurned by her daughter-in-law. This is G-d now spiritually chosen those He accepts as pure in heart, those sincere. From both the Israelites and Gentiles there will only be a few that are redeemed of G-d (passing the test). Remember the time of Noah, a servant of G-d, for during that time out of the populated world only Noah, his wife, three sons and their wives were the sole survivors, so yes, G-d is being merciful to offer such a chance; for during the time of Noah G-d did not tell Noah to spread the gift of His salvation but only to build the ark before He destroyed man without warning. Yes our L-rd is now being very fair and merciful.

Our L-rd said to pick-up your cross and follow Him, He being the first (the example) allowing all to witness and understand by doing so, we too will live again but in perfection as He rose, earning your reward and rest through the Father and His Son generous worth of grace. Yeshua chose to be the first to show G-d the Father is not a lier, that you too will rise again and their being no fear. For the words given in inspiration from Mattahew 10:28 Don't be afraid of those who can kill only your bodies—but can't touch your souls! Fear only G-d who can destroy both soul and body in hell. This mean spreading the word of G-d salvation without fear and allowing oneself to be a follower in His example, one whom was despised, rejected, acquainted with grief. All messengers and prophets of ancient such those being Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Joseph and Moses and the many others were all spiritually and/or literally nailed to a cross being despised, rejected acquainted with grief for trusting and faith. One is given the chance now to submit to the will of G-d and test his worth to G-d, therefore receiving blessings of the reward and rest during the first resurrection mentioned in the Revelations or under-go the more horrific trails of submitting to G-d during the period soon to come under the rule of the anti-christ and false prophet. I pray many choose now, for the testing of G-d is at present less severe than in that soon coming day; for the persecution from the ruling anti-christ and false prophet will be great against those submitting to G-d. Those whom submit now and do not falter, will not share in the days of the anti-christ, for G-d has promised to take them from this time of tribulation. (The first resurrection).

I'm a servant of G-d and by doing so suffer greatly. I have been spiritually nailed to the cross. I have been despised, rejected and acquainted with much grief but G-d sustains me through my faith, He gives me wisdom, power, strength and peace in my sufferings and allows me to see wondrous things that awaits me. Therefore, I fear not because my treasures are with G-d and yes, I have seen! And have been blessed to share in the words spoken by the Messiah to the disciples from Luke 10:23-24 Then turning to the twelve disciples, he said quietly, “How prrivileged you are to see what you have seen. Many a prophet and king of old have longed for these days, to see and hear what you have seen and heard. G-d is awesome and His power beyond comprehension and in your walk with G-d the Holy Spirit will tell you many things known of G-d the L-rd will reveal to you much Glory.

To all, walk away from senseless evil confusing arguments and allow G-d to renew your spirit. He will give you strength, wisdom and understanding. He will keep you from stumbling with His grace and power (you will sustain). Think of your future children in your future inheritance whom will be able to say one day “Oh my parents, if not for your obedience and faith we would not have been here to share and enjoy this wonderful life in the presence of our L-rd.” Let your children in that time be able to say (You are blessed), for they would not have shared the fate of this world but through your example by way of our Messiah sacrifice (your own sacrifice) will render the joys of your offspring. Therefore do as our L-rd commanded when saying “Follow Me”!

G-d and our Messiah presence has arrived and there is not much time. “You Decide”! Go before G-d through His Son our Messiah and ask Him to work in your life to do His will so that you will share in His Glory. Take these words giving to you today being a gift from G-d and share them with others, thus pleasing our L-rd, showing your attempt to please Him through faith, being one with Him, therefore not His enemy.

May our Father, Our Messiah be with you forevermore.

zzron 16 months ago

I really enjoyed this message, it's something more people need to hear. Here are some more biblical scripture about Hell. http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

Dian'swords4u 16 months ago

This was a most awesome hub. I say a good hardy AMEN. This is what it is all about. thank you for your stand and belief. God Bless You

Elisah1957 16 months ago

I'm Ethiopian, Messiah Jew, if not understood, I'm a Jew of many whom believe Yeshua to be the Messiah, the Son of G-d and the way I title the word of G-d and L-rd is done by Jews for their purpose, which is to allow G-d our respect. In other words, keeping ourselves informed that He is so worthy that even His written title should be made aware by us that we are not worthy, to do so in full print, for G-d is not common, for there being none like our G-d and there being none like our L-rd but being deserving of up-most respect, for remember our L-rd Yeshua even explains in Matthew 19: 16-17 and Mark 10:17-18 that no one should not speak of anyone as Good, for only G-d is termed Good. This has been the Jewish way for thousands of years. It is an tribute of respect.

Edward McF 15 months ago

It really is hard to reconcile the idea of a just God with a God who eternally tortures people.

I grew up in a country where there were several religions, of which Christianity was a small but significant part. Most people learned from their elders and followed their own religion, some with great piety, some without. But there were always youths from mixed families or questioners who were trying to decide on the truth of each. I knew a number of people like that - they ran the gamut of personalities, but a number were sweet, nice people who were honestly trying to find the truth. Do you really believe any who ultimately chose another religion or none will be tortured eternally?

I think it is more likely that there are mistakes in the biblical record than that God is that unjust, that, well, evil. I guess I'm saying I trust God's goodness more than I trust the literal work of the bible or conventional interpretations of it.

It's certainly too easy to reject statements in the Bible that we think must be wrong on the face, but it is also too easy to abandon our sense of right and wrong because of our belief that our tenets of religion couldn't have ever gotten confused over the centuries. The history of most religions shows the this.

KrystalM 15 months ago

A guy at work just showed me this hub - (I think I like it better than he does)

I have an Uncle who recently died (cancer), right after his daughter died, also of cancer. During his decline he was in a lot of pain and near the end he lost all faith in Jesus, overtly denying His reality and goodness.

My uncle was sooo kind and gentle of a soul. He was a rock for our family and several other friends, providing counseling, help and money when we needed it. He really kept my son from going bad, I think and persuaded him to get back in to College. My son is now working and just absolutely reveres my uncle.

We are just heartbroken that he was so hurting at the end and feel certain that his failure in faith landed him in Hell - a guy of all guys that didn't deserve it!

I'm sure he knows now of Christ's goodness.

So, my question is - do you think a sinner has a chance of being taken out of Hell after he's died if he is repentant? Does the bible say anything about this?

-sad Krystal who misses her uncle.

KrystalM 15 months ago

A guy at work just showed me this hub - (I think I like it better than he does)

I have an Uncle who recently died (cancer), right after his daughter died, also of cancer. During his decline he was in a lot of pain and near the end he lost all faith in Jesus, overtly denying His reality and goodness.

My uncle was sooo kind and gentle of a soul. He was a rock for our family and several other friends, providing counseling, help and money when we needed it. He really kept my son from going bad, I think and persuaded him to get back in to College. My son is now working and just absolutely reveres my uncle.

We are just heartbroken that he was so hurting at the end and feel certain that his failure in faith landed him in Hell - a guy of all guys that didn't deserve it!

I'm sure he knows now of Christ's goodness.

So, my question is - do you think a sinner has a chance of being taken out of Hell after he's died if he is repentant? Does the bible say anything about this?

-sad Krystal who misses her uncle.

SirDent 15 months ago

Personally, I love it. You wrote truth even though many will refuse it.

For those who do not believe hell to be real, it was created for Satan and his angels. Man was never meant to go there. God set before all men blessings and cursings, death and life. He also said to choose life.

Many believe God is not a God of chastisement. I can tell you that I have been chastised many times.

God is a man of His Word. He cannot lie. Anyone who ends up in hell do os because of the choice that person made. God gave all men and women a way out.

For those who believe God to be a tyrant. Whole nations of people were destroyed because of what they did and the thoughts of their hearts. They rejected God completely and led others away from God. Anything separated from God is destroyed but God Himself can reconcile anything back to Himself.

I can imagine a cancerous tumor growing in someone's brain. Doctors operate and get it out but the tiny tumors they leave. This is why whole nations were destroyed. They were like a cancerous tumor on the earth and if any was left, it would destroy the children of Israel, who are the chosen people of God.

Sorry if I went on too long Kristeen.

Me 13 months ago

I must say that this hub was an encouragement to me. After arguing with and evolutionist about the existence of God, i found this hub with a bunch of Christian comments encouraging. Keep it up!